The following is a discussion amongst some California LDS young single adults in response to someone posting a link to this Deseret News article about Sen. Buttars and his anti-gay sentiments he expressed. The one who posted the link suggested that Utah stop electing this man as a representative. The article itself is worth reading for those wanting to know more backstory, but I find the discussion that follows revealing of the sort of views held by these young adults in California.
For the sake of protecting anonymity of those in the discussion, I’ve changed all the names to the names of characters from Lost. Which name goes to which person indicates nothing about relationship, righteousness, or age, though I’ve matched names to the gender of the participants.
James Sawyer:
The saddest thing is that there are lots of elected officials in local and national governments that feel exactly the same as this guy does. They just don’t say it out loud. They simply vote against gay rights time after time. At least this guy is open about his bigotry.
Hugo Reyes:
The way I feel about it is people say stupid crap all the time thats their right. Its not cool but I dont think we should penalize someone for their opinion. If it was directed at an individual he should apologise but since he just stated what he stated who cares. If he or anyone else wants to publicly state their opinion, good or bad in our eyes, they have every right to. And then we have a right to not vote for them anymore. Thats how the system works.
Sayid Jarah:
I’ve never researched this guy, and it doesn’t sound like (who knows if the quotations are in context) like he’s got much tact! I do believe that the family is the strength of society, based on good moral values.
Kate Austin:
Hugo, I would never suggest that this man have his right to say his opinion revoked. I would suggest that people stop electing people like this. This is not the gospel in action.
Sayid, the context is as follows. He was talking to two guys in Utah wearing BYU t-shirts. He said all of that in conversation, assuming that they were LDS, and assuming that because they were members, he could say this without penalty. Which is even worse press for the church, since this elected official is essentially communicating that HAD he been talking to fellow members, the awful things he said would have been acceptable. If that’s the message we’re spreading, that hatred and intolerance are the status quo, we’ve fallen far from Christ’s message.
For more background and discussion (and links to related info), check out this link.
Hugo Reyes:
Kate,look up d&c 1:30 whether one man says something bad or good he does not represent the church he is merly a representative. Oh and I agree with the comment you made to me above. I was just saying that too many people get all bent out of shape over something that is an opinion of one man thats all. Oh and Sayid you hit it on the head. I like and agree with your opinion. Oh and one more thing if that is what that man is spreading then he has fallen far from Christs message, not the church. . . . I meant representative as an individual ooops
Kate Austin:
It’s only one man’s opinion, but when we vote we’re electing individuals and not just the party they represent. This individual has repeatedly bashed gay people as well as black people, and in my opinion has no business representing the state of Utah or any other state in the U.S. for that matter. Not only does he lack understanding and love for a good portion of his fellow Americans, but he also lacks to good sense to keep his mouth shut.
I’m not getting bent out of shape or personally offended as this doesn’t affect my day to day existence, but reading up on the story I decided to share it so others could see the sort of statements made unabashedly by this politician. Clearly it would be unconstitutional to penalize someone for his or her opinion, but I don’t think not voting for someone would be a penalty, as I would see serving American citizens as a privilege and not a right.
Hugo Reyes:
All of what you just said I agree with. If you do not want to vote for someone because fo something he said and you feel he represents himself and what he stands for through that statement, then i say dont vote for him. That is the way the system should work. I just cant stand it when one person says something and all of a sudden he represents thirteen million peolple. It was his opinion that was verbally stated and his only.
Jack Shepherd:
I’m with Kate, next time I vote for a public official of a state I don’t live in, I’ll avoid anyone who’s said something offensive. (For tips on how to do this, please Google “Things to do instead of voting”)
John Locke:
wait wait…. lol..Hugo, the whole purpose of an elected politician is to represent, he isn’t “all of a sudden” representing people, its kind of the entire purpose of holding such a position, that’s democracy haha.so yes, when someone holding a representative political position is elected, while in office anything he or she says or does is indeed meant to be representative of those who elected them.
Kate Austin:
lol Jack yes no doubt everyone’s guilty of saying less than flattering things. Regardless, if I had heard that someone I was planning on voting for was openly discriminatory about huge groups of individuals like the entire gay or black community, I’d find another place to invest my vote. I can’t get behind the hate.
Hugo Reyes:
well John i understand what you are saying. But i dont think u understand what i am saying i am not talking about the state of utah. I was speaking about Kates early comments on the lds church. As far as utah or the united states he might be able to represent them because of his political position but in no way is he the voice of the church. Is what i was saying.
James Sawyer:
It’s not that this guy represents the official church stance on homosexuality but he does represent the anti-gay sentiment that without a doubt is pervasive throughout the church. I attended an lds Halloween party in 2008 right before the election. One guy dressed up as a devil with a name badge that said Korihor and a sign that said No on Prop 8. The whole night I was thinking “get me out of here” because all the conversations were centered on stopping the gays from destroying marriage. I couldn’t stand it.
I could care less about the fact that he is an elected official. What’s much more sad is that he is a member of what is supposedly Christ’s one true church and yet he talks like this about his- whether he likes it or not- fellow brothers and sisters. To me he is just another great example of the ignorance, delusion, and religious-based hate that is literally destroying this nation from the inside.
Hugo Reyes:
ok so he is doing all the things you just said. When kobe bryant cheated on his wife no one got mad at his teamates for being on his team. This guy might be a creep as well as all those peole at your party but that just means that they as individuals are wrong not the church.
Kate Austin:
Hugo, clearly the church itself has never and will never make any sort of official stance as offensive as what this guy or the sort of people James mentioned have said/done. The sad thing is that many LDS individuals will express similar anti-gay hateful sentiments and believe it’s okay, hiding behind the official statements the church HAS made about homosexuality. Like Sen. Buttars, the hate won’t stop despite being caught because in his mind he’s doing God’s good work.
People feel more comfortable and okay with saying these sort of things in the church than out of it, where general social decorum dictates less hateful behavior (except of course in subcultures that promote hate, but in general). The fact that people can grow up in the church, learning the Gospel, and still think such hatred and intolerance are sanctioned suggests to me that many are somehow missing a huge part of Christ’s message.
I’m reposting this same link because this discussion in particular is about this matter, how it seems that some members feel right about spewing hateful messages, hiding behind the church’s more tactful official stances.
Jack Shepherd:
Now that I’ve read the article (I was that bored) I don’t mind saying that 1) I agree with what he said, and 2) what he said is ESSENTIALLY the same thing that church leaders have eluded to regarding the effect of homosexuality on the family and the importance of said organization (the family) in the success of government, economy, education, etc., all things that will fail (and, to some degree, are already failing) if the family unit fails. The ONLY difference between what he says in the article and what the church teaches is that he ONLY cites homosexuality as a cause for downfall while the church cites homosexuality as one of MANY things that will cause downfall in the family, which will in turn cause total downfall.
I understand letting people live their own lives, loving everyone, allowing people their agency, human rights, etc. I allow all people the right to make their own decisions. But this is where I don’t waiver; homosexual behavior is not acceptable in the eyes of God. It is a grievous sin and I empathize with those who struggle with it. It is a difficult temptation to deal with, but the correct way to do so is not indulgence. I do not, and never will, support, advocate, accept, or in any way hide my feelings about it. I feel that saying I am a member of God’s church and then refusing to stand up for His doctrine, or even accepting and promoting principles that His appointed leaders have strived to teach us are incorrect, is blasphemy. Christ’s gospel is simple. It is the devil that is confusing.
Kate Austin:
*facepalm*
It’s not about whether or not the church’s stance is this or that on homosexuality. This isn’t just an LDS guy chatting with friends and sharing his opinion. This is a public official, partially responsible for legislative decisions to affect American citizens. Also worth noting, this guy wasn’t respectfully explaining his opinion about homosexual *behavior*, but he was verbally abusing homosexuals themselves, as in, the people. As in, a significant portion of those citizens he represents.
There is a HUGE difference between what I think is right or wrong and what I think the government should be enforcing upon everyone as right or wrong. Taking away people’s choices and enforcing the One Right Way was not Christ’s plan, and I think you know whose plan it was, so I don’t need to get into that.
And I’d be careful about accusing others of blasphemy. You’re right that Christ’s gospel is simple, and that’s why there’s no blasphemy involved when standing up against hate and bigotry against our brothers and sisters in humanity.
James Sawyer:
When I spoke out against Prop 8 I got a lot of comments from member friends that told me that by voting against prop 8 I was disobeying the prophet, and therefore, making a choice that would jeporadize my eternal salvation.
They obviously did not read the official church statement that said members have a right to vote how they see fit and should not be persecuted for it. And that’s what’s wrong with these people. They think they know how to return to God, but really they have no clue. I understand it because I once was exactly like them. Luckily, I saw through my own bullshit and I hope they aren’t too deep in it to see through their’s one day.
P.S. If there is a god, and I have to stand before him at a judgement, I will know it’s just a dream when he says “you didn’t make it son. You were a good person, you served your fellow man well, but you remember that vote you cast in the 2008 election? That sealed your fate. Sorry!”
I suppose I sound like I am ranting and I don’t want that. So I will conclude by saying that I appreciate Kate posting this because it is an issue that the Church needs to deal with. Every member does not feel the same as this Buttar guy, but I promise you that the feelings he expressed are much more pervasive than you think. Love and acceptance will get us much further, in life and beyond, than merely blaming and casting stones.
Jack Shepherd:
Nice try, Kate.
First off, the church encourages us to elect public officials that will stand for the same values the church teaches. I would expect such officials to not be bashful in voicing those values. I encourage them to voice them on the political stage. That is why I elected them there. If a prophet of God can stand in front of the world on public television and say that sexual sin and perversion will destroy the earth, why can’t a US senator? *Pretty Please respond to that*
Second, I don’t honestly care whether or not he says “homosexuals” or “gays” or “behavior” or whatever else. He wasn’t “abusing” anybody. I said “behavior,” he said the people who do the behavior, I don’t care, and it truly isn’t worth noting at all. It would be worth noting if he said “Let’s kill all the gays.” But he didn’t. He said homosexuals are “the greatest threat to America.” I believe that they have made the most potent threat to the family, and God’s appointed leaders have said that if the family fails, so will economy, and government, and business, everything. So I believe he is right. And I don’t believe it is abusing somebody to call them out on what they have done. You show me a “gay” or “lesbian” that voted Yes on Prop. 8 and I’ll show you a person who was “abused” by this Senators comments.
Also, your second paragraph is horrible. First, WHY would you want the government to enforce something OTHER than what you feel is right??????? If you don’t feel that what you think is right should be enforced, maybe you should re-evaluate what you feel is right and wrong. I can’t agree with you less on that one. Second sentence: Taking away people’s agency wasn’t Christ’s plan, but enforcing the “One Right Way” was. He epitomizes letting people choose even though there is only one right way, even at the expense of losing them forever. This man isn’t taking away anyone’s agency. He is, however, standing for what is right, albeit in the opinion of many “without tact.”
And lastly, I didn’t accuse anyone of blasphemy. You can read what I said again if you’d like. I stand by it. It is true. I don’t stand for hate. I don’t stand for bigotry. I also, however, don’t stand for homosexuality.
James Sawyer:
I never said that he can’t say what he said. He can say anything he wants to. Kate’s original point is that we should consider not re-electing him now that we know how he really feels. The man claims to be a member of the one true Church on earth and yet severely lacks the love of Christ for a large number of people. His choice to be a public servant brings with it responsibility to be who he says he is. When he fails to do that, we should look elsewhere next election.
The man claiming to be a prophet can say anything he wants to. He isn’t elected by the people and therefore can get away with saying whatever he wants. Then those who truly believe that this man is speaking for God grow up to be elected officials who spout anti-gay sentiments when they think they are off the record.
Kate Austin
First off, I hold the doctrine of treating our fellow man with love and respect higher than the doctrine against homosexuality. One of the two great laws is to love thy neighbor. There’s no third great law that says “but most importantly, don’t be gay”, so when I elect a public official, I place more importance on how he treats his fellow man than whether or not he thinks homosexuality is evil or the cause of “downfall” (whatever that means). U.S. Senators are not God’s mouthpiece nor are they necessarily inspired by God and thus I don’t trust that they’re qualified to be making moral value judgments against a good portion of the citizens they represent, nor do I think to do so fits within their responsibilities. The fact is, in society, it is big fat not okay to spew hate and intolerance, and just because this Senator happens to be a member of the church he shouldn’t be able to hide behind that as a justification for why what he said was “okay”.
Second, you seem to be missing that age-old mantra, “hate the sin, love the sinner”. Homosexuality is not some far off abstract concept. This is the way people live who are our brothers, sisters, friends, neighbors, teachers, etc. and loving them and treating them as God’s children is of greater importance than using the law to impose our beliefs onto them.
We get onto our little heterosexual high-horse thinking that homosexuality is somehow such a worse sin than every other sin you and i commit regularly and we get all up in arms about it, but I’m sure you can imagine that if politicians were suddenly hatefully speaking out against something you struggle with (or more appropriately, don’t even know is wrong) it could be potentially hurtful, especially if it’s something you weigh heavily in the formation of your identity. Notice that despite the clear doctrines on the matters, we don’t look for political candidates looking to outlaw alcohol, tobacco, or enforce temple attendance and scripture study. We seem to believe that we don’t have a place to legally impose those beliefs on non-believers, but homosexuality is somehow different? I’d bet in those matters YOU have voted for someone who doesn’t enforce what you think is right. If you truly feel that what you think is right should not be enforced, maybe you should re-evaluate what you feel is right and wrong.
In regards to my second paragraph before, I believe it’s not up to the government to enforce moral standards upon people. AND your statement, “Taking away people’s agency wasn’t Christ’s plan, but enforcing the “One Right Way” was.” is absolute bologna. Christ didn’t ENFORCE anything. If we enforce the right choices then it no longer matters that the man made the right choice because, in fact, it was not a choice at all. The existence of one right way is not enforcement but is the invitation for people by their own actions and agency to learn about the one right way and being held accountable to live the one right way after they have gained witness by the Spirit that it is, in fact, the truth.
If we were hoping to truly teach and enlighten people to the point where they could see for themselves and gain the witness that would then hold them accountable for these things, we would do a lot better by not dealing with legislation. It seems pretty clear that this sort of denunciation of homosexuality, especially the kind that talks badly about the people themselves, has hurt the chances of many ever even listening to the message that has the potential to change people’s hearts and mind.
P.S. Thanks James
P.S.S. I’d like to point out that leading a church where the membership is comprised of people who have agreed to live by a certain set of standards is much different from leading a country where people are free to live how they choose. The traits and beliefs that would make a person ideal for leading one would not necessarily make them an ideal candidate for the other.
James Sawyer:
You’re welcome! I love the chance to call people out on their hypocrisy. Thanks again for posting this.
Hugo Reyes:
actually Kate that is exactly what we do hate the sin love sinner and from Jacks comments if you would have been paying attention is exactly what he was doing.
Kate Austin:
I was both paying attention and reading word for word. Love was not what I saw.
So now I ask, what do you think? Do you agree or disagree with any one participant in particular? What would you add to the discussion? Is this dialogue between California young adults different from what you’d expect from LDS young single adults in CA or anywhere else?